Sub-titles:
- My wish is lifting the boycott imposed on Iraq and Libya.
- The Israeli conflict with the Arabs is a conflict of greed and different policies, not a conflict of civilizations.
- Controversy over religion receded while an attitude of own interest is ruling the whole world.
- The problem of the Coptic endowments is close to a final solution, thanks to the government.
On the occasion of the celebration of Christmas, Pope Shenouda spoke to el-Mousawar about his wish that the new year would make us forget the hardships of the last year. He expressed his wishes. These are lifting the boycotts imposed on Iraq and Libya, a final solution to the Palestinian issue, Israel’s withdrawal from the Lebanese south and Golan heights. He wished a year of welfare to Egypt. In his interview Pope Shenouda spoke about the story of the prophet Moses and his real identity, religion and conflict between civilizations, the Freedom from Religious Persecution Act, Churches’ democracy, Coptic endowments, the punishment of rapists and other issues.
Q: What are your wishes for the new year on the occasion of Christmas?
Pope Shenouda: I wish that the new year would be a happy year. I hope that the problem of Iraq and Libya will be solved by lifting the boycott hindering their economic growth. I hope that the Palestinians will have their independent state. I pray to God for a year of welfare to Egypt.
Q: Mentioning the Palestinian issue, Arafat promised to declare the independent Palestinian state next May while Israel sees it as a breach of the Wye Plantation agreement. What do you think?
Pope Shenouda: I have always called for the necessity of the existence of an independent Palestinian state. The Palestinians have the right to have their own state. Israel is hindering the peace process on all tracks.
Q: Are the quarrels taking place in the region the result of what we call a conflict between civilizations?
Pope Shenouda: I do not agree with this opinion. For example, the conflict between the Arabs and Israel whether in Lebanon, Syria or Palestine cannot be called a conflict between civilizations but a conflict of greed and different policies. The conflict between the United States on one side and Iraq and Libya on the other side is a conflict over sovereignty. Different civilizations are not the reason for these conflicts.
Conflicts in other regions are created due to differences over international borders. Civilizations, cultures become mixed through modern inventions, mass media and the Internet. Everyone seeks knowledge without any conflict.
Q: Are these quarrels due to religious conflicts?
Pope Shenouda: I do not think so. The United States cooperates with Saudi Arabia and Kuwait in spite of the difference in religion. Japan and China try to cooperate with Muslim Arab countries. Attitudes of self interest are prevailing all over the world while differences over religion receded.
Q: Judaism moved far from the divine after it turned into a military and political movement aiming at occupying more Arab land. What is your comment?
Pope Shenouda: You should say the Jewish state instead of Judaism. Israel’s actions have nothing to do with religion but they are pure political actions. Politics and religion were mixed in Israel in order to achieve one aim.
Q: If we speak about churches and preachers, I question of level of democracy enjoyed by preachers. Can a preacher speak about any topic inside the church or he is tied by certain instructions dictated by the government and your holiness in order not to exceed certain limits?
Pope Shenouda: Every preacher in any church speaks in a distinguished way to other preachers. Preaching in the Coptic church is done according to a liturgical book called "Kata - Ameros" which is a Coptic word meaning "today’s readings".
The preacher should not speak about any political issue because preaching in the church has a religious aim and not a political one. If the preacher speaks about political issues, the government has the right to keep an eye on his political thought to make sure that he does not get out of line.
Q: What is your point of view concerning the Freedom from Religious Persecution Act issued by the American Congress to be implemented on some countries including Egypt?
Pope Shenouda: What I can say is that we do not allow any foreign country to interfere with our domestic affairs. This is against Egypt’s sovereignty. Every one has the right to comment or express his opinions but not to impose his policies on others.
Q: The policies of harassment used by the west against our region’s countries seems to be the new imperialism. Do you see it so?
Pope Shenouda: In the old days land occupation was called imperialism but today occupying strategic areas is called inspection areas and international police centers.
Q: The "Times" recently commented on a movie called "The Prince of Egypt." It mentioned that prophet Moses is Ramses II, meaning that Moses was not a Hebrew but an Egyptian prince. What is your comment?
Pope Shenouda: Moses was Jewish and Hebrew, an Egyptian princess picked him up from the water . That is why he was called Moses. His name means "taken from water". He lived in the royal palace for some time. He then left it for some reasons related to religion. Moses cannot be Ramses II or any pharaoh because his life was a struggle against Pharaoh. Moses’ struggle against the pharaoh ended with the drowning of Pharaoh and his soldiers and Moses’ emigration to Sinai and then to Canaan. It is not possible that the great pharaoh Ramses II would have left his own country and emigrated with a group of people.
It is also impossible that two pharaohs existed at the same time and one of them caused the drowning of the other while the country is left without a leader. Moses’ mother was certainly Hebrew. At the same time the Egyptian princess who picked up Moses from the water was considered a second mother to him.
Q: So, the opinion saying that Moses is Ramses II or an Egyptian pharaoh is historically wrong?
Pope Shenouda: This opinion is a joke. It is not based on any scientific study. Let me ask you, did Ramses II receive the Jewish law from God? Is Ramses II admitted as a prophet by Judaism, Christianity, or Islam?
Q: The "Times" claimed that Sinai mountain where Moses received his inspiration may not have been in Sinai?
Pope Shenouda: So, Where would it be? We also have to answer another question. What is the relation between the imaginary second place of mount Sinai and the story of Moses and the pharaoh? Did the two struggle in another continent? This is a fantasy that has nothing to do with science.
Q: What is the relation between religion and fanaticism, secularism and open-mindedness?
Pope Shenouda: There is a difference between being religious and being fanatic. Religiousness is a virtue that involves many spiritual values, while fanaticism involves many sins and mistakes. On the other hand there is a difference between open-mindedness and indifference. Some secularists are indifferent to their religion. This cannot be considered a kind of open-mindedness.
Q: Does believing in supernatural things necessarily results in an anti-science attitude?
Pope Shenouda: Believing in religion is something and believing in supernatural things is something else. There is a difference between a man who believes in miracles and supernatural things with superstitions.
Q: Can the belief in heaven and hell be anti-scientific?
Pope Shenouda: What God commanded must be true without any doubt. Science is searching in material things and all what is related to life in this world. Life after death is something related to faith not to science.
Q: Is there a contradiction between religion and science?
Pope Shenouda: There is no contradiction between true religion and true science. Sometimes contradictions appear as a result of misunderstanding religion or when science goes beyond its own limits and fields of research. If a scientist claims that there is no heaven or hell, we will ask him to prove this scientifically which he will not be able to.
Q: The same thing can be applied to a clergyman if he was asked to prove the existence of heaven and hell scientifically.
Pope Shenouda: This can be proved by divine inspiration which is related to faith. Faith is a stage beyond science.
Q: What is the real value of religion in the life of civilized man?
Pope Shenouda: religion includes values and principles which must have an effect on any culture or civilization. Religion keeps civilization away from corruption. Many values of religion are very important for any civilization like honesty, sincerity and others.
Q: But, religion is receding. What if religion disappeared. What would prevent man from committing sins?
Pope Shenouda: I do not agree with you that religion is receding. Throughout history every movement of desertion was followed by a revival where people stuck more and more to their religion. Moreover, God created a natural law inside man which is conscience.
Q: Businessmen are not considering the social dimension which dictates that donations for social work are given. What is your comment?
Pope Shenouda: These donations should not be obligatory. It should not be enforced by the society. Any successful businessmen would then fear the power of the society. In this case attitudes against the rich will appear while they are contributing to the economy of the whole country. Progressive taxes exist abroad so that the rich would contribute to the welfare of the society by law.
Q: A prominent psychiatrist recently announced that eating opium is not forbidden and that it is not considered to be addictive. What is your comment?
Pope Shenouda: Addiction of opium comes after eating it several times. Psychiatrists know that habit is a voluntary repeated action. Taking any kind of drugs leads to addiction. Religion forbids the first step towards sin in order not to be controlled by this sin afterwards when it turns into a habit.
Q: What is the punishment of a rapist in Christianity? I am asking this question because a court recently declared the innocence of four rapist when one of them offered to marry the raped girl.
Pope Shenouda: Christianity does not present any civil laws. The rapist is brought before a civil court. Adultery is condemned by all religions. The rapist commits adultery and enforces the other side to take part in the sin. Rape is a crime against the raped girl’s humanity, future, and honor.
The marriage of the victim with the rapist is not allowed according to church law because it involves elements of compulsion and the humiliation of raped women.
We should not interfere with the state’s laws according to the command of Christ "Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s".
Q: Is not it a passive attitude?
Pope Shenouda: We are not taking a passive attitude towards legislation. We have to testify to the right.
Q: Is the problem of the Coptic endowments solved?
Pope Shenouda: The existence of a joint committee of the Ministry of Endowments and the Coptic Authority For Endowments helped in achieving good results. This issue is in the stage of a final solution. We thank the government for dealing with this subject in a good way.
