[The interview was made in June for the Reformatorisch Dagblad in The Netherlands and was published in a shortened form on July 21, 1999. The full text of the interview is made available here. It explains the background of Rafique Iscander, who emigrated ten years ago to the USA, and the reason why the Coptic Union was founded.]
[In the text below the following abbreviations are used: CH for Cornelis Hulsman, RI for Rafique Iscander.]
CH: You were born in the governorate of Sohag... Where exactly were you born? When? Could you explain something about your youth?
RI: My name is Rafique Fakhry Iscander. I was born on April 3, 1953. I was born on Good Friday in Saht Al-Tahta or Tahta Bey. It had a population of five thousand (5,000) to ten thousand (10,000) people at that time. It is a poor area, it looks like a Jewish ghetto in Poland or Germany at the time of the holocaust. The city was surrounded by Arab Muslims who never assimilated with us or we never assimilated with them at the time because of our culture and religious differences. My father was a government employee in what we call now the ministry of supply. He used to be in charge of the office for this ministry in Tahta until 1957. I woke up in the morning with cries of my grandmother, the mother of my father, because my father had to be moved out of his home city and was replaced a Muslim. We can’t say the guy was bad or wrong but my father had to leave his homeland for the Red Sea. I still remember the name of that guy, Mustafa Darwish, he wasn’t a bad guy. Actually this is my first image, formed in my memory in that time.
CH: Why did this happen?
RI: This was in 1957 and Nasser had his revolution in 1952. I understood later on that many Muslims came from the lower part of Egypt to Upper Egypt and many Christians were moved away from Upper Egypt. Christians were replaced by Arab Muslims. They were moved by administrative order by Nasser at the time or the government of the revolution. This was a stunning point in my childhood life. I saw [for] the first time my family very sad and [it] became scattered all over Egypt. We were living in a peaceful village, it is in the west side of the Nile and instead of living together in peace our hardships started when we were moved to the Red Sea in 1957.
CH: There was no other reason why your father was removed? He was prior to his removal functioning well?
RI: I don’t know, but he had spent [over] 20 years since [that] date in 1957 till he died in 1982 fighting this oppression of this government decision against him. They moved him from Tahta to Al-Qusseir at the Red Sea and from the Red Sea to Sinai in 1962 until the beginning of 1967 when the war started between Egypt and Israel. He was fighting from 1957 to 1962 to return to his homeland and he was removed to Sinai. Why did the government [do] this against him? He thought, and I don’t know, that he was qualified for the job and he was working a long time and he was working in his own family, he helped everybody in his own city. There was no reason for this action. I believe this incident in particular [was important], besides an incident [that happened] to the father of my mother, who lived in the same city. That was in 1959, the government confiscated all his property. He used to work as a merchant of cotton and onion, all the agricultural crops in upper Egypt. He used to sell them in Cairo and Alexandria. All the sudden the government asked, I don’t know, I can’t remember now, but the government confiscated everything. And the family of my mother started to be scattered all over the country... until 1961... they sold the last property they had and moved to Cairo where they still live until now. And they wish to [go] back a certain day. Hmm... it is over for them I believe. This is the second memory. I remember my mother cried when her father fell sick for two years. He was paralyzed because he got a shock. He stayed in bed until I think 1961 when he died. We were disconnected from our home city. We moved to Sinai in 1962 until the beginning of the war. Then the government moved my father back to his homeland but then it was all over. He could not stay there.
CH: Why?
RI: We are a family of seven members. Some of us wanted better education facilities and this doesn’t exist in Tahta and so we moved to Assiut. We stayed in Assiut from the end of 1966 until I fled my country in 1989 I believe or in 1988 until the government confiscated my property.
CH: What happened in between?
RI: Oh, a lot. We stayed in Assiut from 1966 until 1988. When I went to Assiut I was surprised. It was a very beautiful city. It looked like a European city at the time. The whole city was Christian. In the whole neighborhood were only three Muslim houses and they were very assimilated with the Christians. We never felt any difference with those three families. Until little by little we found the Muslim families increasing in numbers, maybe because Nasser established Assiut University and Muslim people came from all over the country to Assiut. Nothing was strange at the time. We accepted this and there were no problems. The existing problem was a hidden problem. The policy of the government in Cairo could not be felt in Upper Egypt in that time but little by little Assiut changed until 1974. I worked in a street called Al-Muhafza street and I found a lot of police and a lot of military and police vehicles. I asked what is going on? They said Sadat is visiting Mohammed Osman Ismail, the governor of Assiut at the time. Then I wondered why the president of Egypt stayed for a week in the house of the governor? Later I discovered Sadat was planning something in Assiut until the year ’85 or ’86 came. I was in the faculty of engineering in Assiut and found the people with Islamic clothing, white galabiya and a white Islamic cap on their head. They got everyday bigger and bigger in numbers and they started to attack other student activities like music or parties or any political activity and we heard this group was fighting the communist groups in the university. Okay, we thought, we are not communists, we believe in Jesus Christ and communists do not believe in God until we felt there were no more communists in university but the same group the grew bigger and bigger in number and got better organized until 1977 Sadat went to Israel for peace. After that the whole Christian life in Assiut city was changed forever. For example I used to own a small newsstand in Assiut to make a living and I had named this newsstand ’Camp David’. We were waiting for the peace with our neighbor, we wanted to live in peace. In 1977 I faced for the first time persecution directed against myself when one of the professors in the faculty of engineering said, ’As long as I am here in this faculty you won’t get your bachelor’s degree from this faculty.’ OK, so I decided to make a trip outside Egypt.
CH: What is his name?
RI: I don’t want to mention his name. Later when I came back from Europe he became my friend. He is still there.
CH: How come he became your friend?
RI: In business... We worked together in business. I have been working in contracting in the eighties and he was a professor in engineering so we had a chance to work together in some contracts. Forgive me, I don’t want to harm anyone in his feelings now. I went to France and stayed there three years until I heard the professor had gone to Saudi Arabia. France was a big change in my life. I found different people, different thoughts, freedom, different kind of freedom, publications all over. I used to go to newsstands and buy newspapers and I found a lot of books and materials and started to read. I felt what I was reading was the truth. I can feel it, I can be positive with it and so I started to think about my problem and the problem of my family and the history of my family and I started to acknowledge and perceive new facts that we are not free.
CH: So what books and authors influenced you most?
RI: I read French newspapers such as Le Figaro about the problem in the Middle East. I attended the Alliance Francaise in Paris, close to Le Mont Parnasse. I cannot specify specific books.
CH: What kind of books?
RI: Books of western culture, western thoughts. Some thoughts about Egypt, about Napoleon. I visited Le Louvre two or three times and I found a big part on ancient Egypt and I was surprised about this rich history. Why don’t we have this [such museum] in Egypt? Why don’t we have it?
CH: What about the Egyptian Museum?
RI: Yes we have that but it looks like a storage room. No information [is] posted, no one is helping you and a big part of the history is missed. The Egyptians don’t want to talk about it. They don’t want the Egyptian people to know about their history.
CH: Are you referring to Coptic history?
RI: No, even ancient Egyptian history. They ignore it. The ancient part of it. When you study history they give you an idea about who built the pyramids and the names of some kings but no one teaches the philosophy of the ancient Egyptians, no one talks about the daily life, how was our system, what we used to eat and drink. We don’t know anything about it. Still until now, maybe in the US, I bought a lot of books about ancient history and this awakes many things in myself. Why we ignore ourselves to this level? Why we hate our history and ourselves until I discovered that Egypt is not free. Since the occupation of the Arab Muslims the same persecution is ongoing. Maybe there are ups and downs in the past 1500 years but when you compare the latest 20 years with any era in the 1500 years you find many similarities. The same persecution, the same kidnap, the same raping, burning churches, waging wars, for example when I read about Salah El-Din Al-Ayoubi I read about his wars against the crusades but I didn’t learn that he destroyed the Coptic capital in Upper Egypt, that used to be Qoptos, and he changed the name of this town and made it Quft. He took all the Christians from that city and he sold them like slaves, the white slaves. He was the first one who tried to destroy the first pyramid in Giza while we were told in our history books that Napoleon destroyed this pyramid which is not...
CH: The pyramid? Not [the] Sphinx?
RI: No, the first five or six layers of the first pyramid. Salah El-Din wanted to finance his campaign he was hoping to find gold inside. He was searching for gold until he gave up. Isn’t strange that someone who is the ruler of that country tries to destroy the history of that country? Until I discovered that it was not his country. He was an invader and he tried to destroy the identity of that country.
CH: What about Christians who destroyed Pharaonic hieroglyphics in the temple of Dendarah?
RI: What are you trying to say? That the Pharaonics dismantled their own monuments?
CH: Christians dismantled Pharaonic monuments in the second century AD.
RI: Look, always there is bad people and good people in all nations. When you are captive and not free you always find bad people who try to destroy their own selves. But what is going on in the Coptic community or here. There are many Copts working opposite to their own interest. This is not strange in Egypt. This is an operation which lasted 2557 years, starting with Nebuchadnezzar and ending with president Mubarak. Right? So the 1500 years of the Arab occupation are the same. The last 20 years is a good example to test the persecution, what kind of persecution the Christians face. Let me get back to my story. I came back from France in 1980. I went to the college to continue to get my bachelors degree and I was faced by another professor.
CH: In Assiut?
RI: Yes, I knew my father had cancer at the time. He was disabled and couldn’t support the family anymore and I came back to Egypt to support the family. I went to the college to have my degree and I failed to get it. I was confronted by a professor, I can mention his name this time. His name is Mustafa Yassin. He was the president of the civil engineering department at the time. He is retired now. This was in 1980 or 1981.
CH: Before Sadat’s death?
RI: Yes, Sadat was alive and Professor Mustafa Yassin had organized a small party for the people who were going to work on a project with him. I was one of them. And he had a conversation at the time with us. We want "Al-Mustabid Al-Adel Hakim." I had just returned from France. What did it mean? Mustabid means oppressor? A just oppressor? It is hard to translate but in Arabic it gives you a strong meaning. Because it cannot be together, justice and oppression. Then I interrupted him and asked ’what do you mean by "Mustabid Al-Adel?" He said it is like Omar Ibn El-Khattab [editor: ’mustabid’ comes from the root ’abd’, this is slave. A ’mustabid’ is the one who brings people as slaves under his authority. A ’mustabid al-Adel’ is someone who is just, has wisdom and knows what is best for the people who are submitted to him. He treats them as slaves but out of conviction that he knows what is best for them.]. I told him do you have another Omar Ibn El-Khattab [the second caliph. Many Muslims see him as an example of a ’mustabid al-Adel] now? Then the whole Muslim group who was wearing the galabiya and it was for me very strange because I had never seen students in galabiya in the faculty of engineering. Then the whole Muslim group...[sentence wasn’t finished. Perhaps he meant ’looked at me’?]. It was very strange for me in 1981 because it had not started yet before I left for Europe. Maybe the time I was in Europe it started. He got very upset from my question and then he said something that you are not involved in this because you are Christian. He didn’t say this literally but I got this impression. I felt I was not welcome in this conversation. So I kept silent. The next week I had an appointment in his office and he tried to pitch anything like any mistake here or there and he said you have to choose, he gave two courses, the project and irrigation as a course. He asked me which one I wanted to pass and I asked to be pass in the project because I had spent some money on that. He said it is okay. I failed in irrigation and I cost me a full year to finally graduate. Then I finally graduated in 1982. Actually there is another Muslim doctor who helped me to finish my studies. That was Dr. Sabry. He is in civil engineering. He is working as a consultant and has his own business. I started making business and I believe I succeeded to a certain point to grow. This all happened. This was regular with us. We knew this as Christians we were treated like this. We cannot evaluate why we are in deep trouble like this. No one tried to explain. Always bad action from here to there and the Islamicization as a phenomena grew at the university. I started making my business until I decided to have a small manufactory to produce building material like bricks and this kind of stuff and I got all the licenses needed and when I started the business I asked the governorate to give me my quota.
CH: What quota?
RI: Yes, I have to receive quota from the government like cement because it was my raw material, my main material. This quota was signed by Youssef Wali and the Ministry of Industry, Abdel Wahab Mohammedein. I have the two signatories and I went to the guy in Assiut Housing Department and I asked him to give me my quota and he said "No, I am not going to give you." I asked "why?" He said "Don’t ask me why." Then I sent someone, he used to be a relative of Montaz Nassar, the Wafd leader in the Egyptian Parliament and he asked the guy "Why don’t you want to give him the quota? He wants to work. He spent a lot of money and he borrowed money from the bank and has to pay back." He said "I am not going to give him because he is Christian". This is the answer I received. Then I sent another one. He used to be an investigator with the mabahes [security]in the second sector of Assiut. He was my friend. I asked him to do this favor and then he gave me the same answer. Then I said but I have a Muslim partner. He said "I am not giving you your quota because you are a partner to a Christian." So I sent letters to all government agencies.
CH: What was the name of your partner?
RI: Mohammed Radi Ezz Eddin. He fled with me. He is in Greece right now. He is facing a lot of problems, he lost his family, his kid. He still lives in Athens when I heard about him three years ago. After I received this answer from the government I sent letters to all government agencies that I have no production because I didn’t receive my quota but I didn’t mention the reason actually. But I put it clear that something wrong was going on. I sent it to the taxes and others and I asked them not to ask me for any taxes. One week later, the bank had a new manager, I still remember his name, Mahmoud Mahmoud Mahmoud Nazir. When he came, just the first day in his office in Assiut, he came from Lower Egypt, Zagazig, to the branch in Assiut. Then he asked for my file and called me to see me. Okay. He said you have to pay the money. You have 80,000 EgP debts and so I told him I cannot produce anything now. So you are better [to] be patient and I solve the problem or give me time to look for a solution. He said "No, I’ll give you one month to pay back." I said "No, I can’t pay back." A week later he sent the whole file to the prosecutor general. I asked what is the reason. I made no mistake. I made many contracts with companies in Egypt, contract numbers, until now they didn’t pay me. For example there is a company called Petrojet. I used to work for them in a contract. They broke all my material on purpose. I put thousands of [pounds of] material there. I used get it from the black market in order to help myself and they refused it despite the test was very positive on my side and they asked me not to use this material. Then they confiscated some equipment. Then they refused to give me my money back until I left my country. They owe me more then 50,000 EgP and I didn’t get it until now. I don’t know what to do. They caused a lot of problems around me until I heard from one of the bank employees that my file went to the state prosecutor general. Then I am in danger. I am in danger to be prosecuted for no reason and the reason for me is clear. I cannot solve it. My mother heard this and this caused her a heart attack. I left for Cairo to look for a visa to flee away from the country. I got a Greek visa in 1988. Then I called my mother, she was crying. She said I won’t see you again. It was very hard. The next day I heard from one of brother’s friends that my mother passed away. I had to go back to bury my mother and then flee the country. It was very dangerous for me to go back but I decided to go. There was a problem with Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. I lived across the street from him. When I came to the US I saw Omar Abdel Rahman again on the street in Jersey City. I asked him, "Why are you following me?" laughing. So I succeeded to bury my mother.
CH: Why was this difficult?
RI: Because there is a tradition to have a ’suwaan’[A suwaan is the name given to the tent set up in the street which is used for such occasions as engagement celebrations, marriage celebrations and funerals] to receive the condolences and then after the ’suwaan’ you go and bury the body. He [Omar Abdel Rahman] refused to have me make a suwaan and you know why? Because we are Christian and maybe one or two priests would come to give us condolences and this is not allowed by Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. He is the only one who controlled the area in that time.
CH: In Assiut city?
RI: Assiut city. The heart of Assiut city. I lived in Seti [the] First street, one block from Ibrahim Basha from the police. One block away. I lived in the fourth floor. I saw him everyday cursing the Christians. Cursing the Jews, cursing the government of Egypt because they don’t apply the Islamic laws and Islamic codes. Every day they held some campaigns. They called it cultural campaigns, Islamic campaigns and in 1986 I saw them organizing a campaign - they called it the ’Military Islamic campaign in Assiut.’ This campaign stayed three years in the street. Three years the streets were closed and we couldn’t go out and the police was watching. Nothing happened.
CH: Like Imbaba?
RI: I don’t know. I wasn’t in Imbaba but maybe it was even worse because they marked all the Christian houses with crosses and we were told to expect that any massacre could happen against Christians any time. Then I remembered my mother, spending three days on the balcony without sleeping, watching those people, maybe they will attack us upstairs, maybe they’ll kill us. I still remember that scene. Another incident I saw at Assiut university when three Christian students were thrown from the first floor. Maybe one or two killed and they were left for hours in the street and the police watched everything, no problem. The Muslim fundamentalists searched all dormitories that belonged to the Christians, they looked for Christian pictures, Christian bibles or anything and they were tortured and I heard the cries of students and no one did anything. Then I started to realize something is wrong. Two weeks after this incident I saw an organized protest come out of the mosque of Omar Abdel Rahman and they went to the Christian business area, Sharia Shahid Al-Surarib, there were two coffee shops neighboring each other and I saw the Muslim militia get inside this coffee shop beating the people and I saw the police get inside and I thought they are going to be kicked out. No, what I saw was the police beating the people as well, like the Islamic group. It was crazy, I thought what is going on here?! The police shared in the same action. They destroyed everything and they looted the stores and I remember the leader of the police, an officer named Abdel Hamid Galal, he used to be the head of the investigation in Assiut and he saw everything as if everybody was doing his duty. This is what he was ordered to do. Now we have new information. The government helping those people. Then I focused on that point and then I remembered the two lines at Assiut University. One line for the boys with the white galabiyas and white head [coverings] and another line for girls wearing the hegab and the boys received 4.50 EgP for wearing this Islamic cloth and for the girls it was the same. Each month, each month... Oh now we have something here. The government is supposed to protect the Christians and fight those extremists, those militia. No they were helping them. I remember Al-Haqq Laila. He used to be the president of this place. And I asked one of my friends who worked inside and he said this is regular now for one year.
CH: Who paid? The government or the Islamists?
RI: I don’t know but the building belonged to the government. The whole facility belonged to the government, Assiut University. I don’t know who paid and I don’t care. I want to do something for that. Until a very important action happened. I met my future wife in 1982. She used to work for me. I knew her uncle was killed by Muslim fundamentalists [which was reported in] Al-Ahram newspaper in 1982. Yes, I used to go to my office, I used to go through Al-Nemesis street. At the right side of the Nemesis street, opposite the Orthodox church, the only big church in that area, there was a piece of land belonging to her uncle. He devoted himself to social services for Christian children. He had a Christian orphanage called Beit Al-Gihad Al-Orthodoxy. His name was Ibrahim Al-Menqabady. This guy was killed by a group of Muslim people. The criminals are well-known in Assiut, they belong to the Al-Atify family.
CH: How do you know it was the Al-Atify family?
RI: Everybody knows it. Even my wife. Don’t ask me for evidence. I just heard. I am just giving you the information I had at the time. I had no intention to investigate it at the time. I was told Al-Atify. They were known to be extremists, they used to start violence in this area, they always carried weapons. They have been accused of beating Christians in their street, they lived in a Christian neighborhood nearby a school called Qadiq Al-Youssef [name not clear] school. Ibrahim Al-Menqabady used to live two or three blocks from them. They slaughtered Ibrahim Al-Menqabady just before he went into his house. Then his brother, the father of my wife, heard this and hurried to his home and took him to the hospital. It was too late. Two weeks later her brother died too. I knew my wife in these circumstances but I got surprised when Al-Ahram newspaper, in 1982 I believe, yes 1982, they reported a full page, it was the third page, maybe in March or April, and they mentioned the incident of Ibrahim Shafiq Al-Menqabady who was killed by the Muslim militia in Assiut and some of those groups were involved in the killing of Sadat. So now the information is different. From the Al-Atify family to the people who killed Sadat, reported by the newspaper. The following events of this family is that the property of this guy was confiscated, Beit Al-Gihad Al-Orthodoxy was torn down, and the whole area was sold to a Muslim. They moved this orphanage to a corner in another side of the street, until it was destroyed and sold to another Muslim group.
In 1985 or 1986 I started the business for making the material for buildings. Until 1988, my wife who was my fiancée at the time, and whenever I saw her I promised her to get married, because I am not able to come back there. I fled Egypt and I went to Athens. I stayed in Athens for four months. Then my visa was expired but I couldn’t go back to Egypt. I knew a good Muslim friend from Egypt who had Albanian roots. He advised me to go with him to Yugoslavia. In Yugoslavia he knew people at the Greek embassy where they could renew the visa. We went to Yugoslavia for one week. He succeeded in getting the visa and we returned back to Athens and I applied for a visa to the USA and they gave me a visa. I came to the USA in April. I stopped in France on my way to the USA. I came here in April 1988. I arrived in Greece in February 23, 1988. Then I stayed two or three visa and renewed my visa. I decided why stay in Athens? - the life is not good to stay there. So I moved to France and I found I could not stay in France either. Then I was advised by Coptic friends of Assiut to come to the USA. The life is going to be better for someone in my circumstances. Then started my next stage. I had to save my wife. I kept calling her, what can we do? So we decided to get married, a year from this year. I succeeded to have a residence in the USA. That was in January 1989. That was a temporary green card.
CH: How did you get it?
RI: The opportunity was there at the time because I had a contract with a farmer. I had this document and submitted at the American immigration. I asked the Egyptian immigration about my expired passport. My Egyptian identification was very old. It was from 1969, the first time I had my ID. I gave it to the guy in the immigration and he thought I had a problem. I have a background of problems and he wanted to help. He helped me a lot in filling out the application, then he allowed me to get my work authorization. That was not a problem for me and I got a visa for five years. I had time to adjust my status in the US. Then I started hard to work as a vendor in the street to make some money. I made some money. I called my now wife and I went to Athens where we got married in the Orthodox church of Athens. That was on October 10, 1989. I never felt that I was married. We were living in very hard circumstances. I didn’t feel any happiness in this marriage. I felt I had to get married. I could not turn my back to my wife there. Maybe someone trying to revenge or to retaliate because Al-Ahram mentioned a story about me that I fled out of Egypt and they put my name with Hoda Abd Al-Moneim. Do you remember Hoda Abd Al-Moneim?
CH: No. But when did Al-Ahram write this story?
RI: 18 April 1988. They repeated it again, one or two years later. I don’t remember. After this they decided to confiscate everything. By that time I didn’t have anything. The people steal. It was a very hard time for me. Then my wife joined me in Athens, we got married but they couldn’t get a visa for the US. I was now in another dilemma. She could not return back because the state prosecutor decided me or my wife or my kids should be under the investigation so I asked her to come with me to the USA and we had to find a solution. I contacted friends in the USA and they gave me names of people in Mexico. By the way I was very wise when I advised my wife to have a Mexican visa in Cairo before she came because I calculated maybe yes, maybe no, it is very hard to get an American visa from anywhere in the world so she succeeded to have a Mexican visa. Her application for a US visa in Athens was rejected so I had to go straight. She could not return back, she was my wife now and thanks to God, real thanks to God I succeeded in smuggling her to the USA through the Mexican-American border. I was very honest in my application, I mentioned this in my application and I had no way to go. This was the only way available. I know this land, the US, is good for the persecuted from all over the world. The history of the US is based on this point. We came to the US on November 14, 1989. That was the first day for us in the US. That month was very, very hard. I cannot forget. I have to tell you something. It was the first time in my life I prayed to God. I cannot tell you what I saw. I saw something very strange. I was laying on the bed, praying with my wife. I raised my head and I found a very white pigeon in the window, she stayed for half a minute and then she flew away. Then it was nothing, it was the desert, the US-Mexican border. I took it as a good sign to continue. Then I decided to continue my way. I said Sonia, my wife, we have to continue. We went to the airport. Thanks God, no one recognized our problem. They let us in the aeroplane. We went to Houston. We came from Mexico to the US-border. I was just across the US-border in a village called Brownsville. I just crossed the border from Matamoros to Brownsville and from Brownsville to Houston I took a flight. From Brownsville to Houston there are many checkpoints. This was very dangerous. I could lose my residence if I would have been caught. Who knows, who is going to believe our story? It is very hard. They would ask for evidence. How would I get it? You remember when you asked for evidence. I took this sign as a positive sign and I went very confident to the airport. From Houston we went to Newark Airport in the night of November 18, 1989.
In January 1990 I decided to go back to school. I have to start my life here. I went to college in 1990, thanks God, another big change. I got financial aid. That helped to pay the tuition and to buy the books and something to live from. I spent six years in education until I graduated from the New Jersey Institute of Technology. I obtained my second bachelor’s degree in Computer and Information Technology. That was in 1996. In my final exam I faced a lot of problems. My wife was in the hospital. She was pregnant but we had lost... she had a problem and we went to the hospital and I postponed my graduation until 1997. I lost the semester. From 1997 until now I started my new business here.
Let me tell you something, while I was in the college I made some money. With this little money I started a business in Jersey City. This business helped to support my family and myself. It was very good for me to have education in the US. Until now no politics, nothing about the Coptic problem, nothing about persecution. In March of 1994 I was returning home at 12.00 AM in the evening. A friend of mine said, you remember your friend Seif Shafiq. I said yes, I remember him. He said, he got killed in Muharraq Monastery in el-Qussia. I got very shocked. I had seen the guy a week before when he stopped by me to ask if I needed any help. He was traveling to Egypt and wanted to know if I needed anything. That was not needed. I congratulated him because he was traveling for getting married. He got married on Thursday and got killed on Friday by a group of Muslim fundamentalists. Actually I spent the whole night [crying], I don’t know why that guy effected my life so much. He used to work for me for about two weeks. He was very nice, very helpful and I considered him to be a good friend. When I went home I decided what shall I do now? I decided to place a small advertisement in a small Jersey journal, a local newspaper in Jersey City. I couldn’t sleep and early in the morning I called the newspaper and said I want to place an advertisement about my friend who was killed in Egypt. They asked me to wait and okay I waited for some hours. Then I was called by the editor-in-chief of that paper, the Jersey Journal, then I an interview with a journalist called Elaine. I still remember her name. She said we don’t want you to pay money. We want to help you to put your story because the guy used to live in Jersey City. I went to his apartment and I took his picture. I submitted the picture to the newspaper and I explained the story. I was surprised by a question of Elaine, "You seem to be very angry Rafique, what are you planning to do?" I had nothing in my mind at the time but I said, "We have to protest." Two days later the police department in Jersey City called me and asked me to get the permit for the protest. Very good! I was very happy. God gave me a gift. You understand? This is my change. I have to say everything and I decided to do so. That is it. Once I got the permit I bought some material like making signs and making flyers and it was the first time in my life to organize a protest. I wrote a flyer in Arabic to ask people for this problem. There is a man from Jersey City, he is Christian. He went to get married and was killed there. Where are we waiting for? Until we are finished? I received a good reaction from the community.
CH: Copts?
RI: Yes, Copts. I have never seen a Christian protest in my life but I organized it myself. I put the flyer in the newspaper in the street, I put in on building, on front doors and next day the main area of Jersey was closed by the police. Today is a day of protest. And the police asked me when do you want the protest? I was very smart and I asked for Friday, 5.00h in front of the station area. Why? Friday is rush time, 5.00h is a rush hours and the station is the best. If you come out of New York you see the protest or here or there you are going to see it. Unfortunately it was a very heavy snowfall. And the police asked, are you going to cancel it? I said no, because I knew I couldn’t repeat the same procedure again. It was a very successful protest. You cannot imagine the Coptic people, under the snow, three or four hundred people, calling for help from the US-government or anyone who wants to help. Two or three days later I received a call from a friend to know why I had this protest. I went to them and I explained the story and I decided to invest the moment of this protest and to help the people there. This was a friend who was killed. Maybe tomorrow my family, my brother, who knows and so I decided to help and I continued the way until I sit now with you. That’s all. Do you have any question?
CH: Yes, when did you really formalize and start the American Coptic Union.
RI: I started the ACU in October or November 1994 after the protest. The protest was the beginning. I had no intention to do anything. But I had my anger, I had my memories and my background and I had the energy of oppression. Oppression gives you energy to resist and I had the power to trust Jesus and to trust God to help those people because they never committed anything in their life. They are real innocent, they don’t understand, they are naive. I am sorry to say this. These are my own people. They don’t understand what is going on around them but I am don’t blame them. No correct information, no correct education, the whole environment is poisoned by the Arab-Islamic propaganda and the hatred that is born with the Muslim Brotherhood and Jihad and all the Islamic radical groups. They created such an environment with the help of their government in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and the Gulf and during the Afghanistani war. This kind of environment created a hatred between, no I didn’t say Christians hate Muslims in Egypt, maybe until now you have many Christians who defend Muslims and they don’t understand.
CH: And Muslims defend Christians.
RI: Yes, and it is very strange but I don’t blame because the information that reaches them is not correct. That is not a reason to give up. I decided to help the innocent people. I don’t know who will be killed next day. I’ll tell you a very important story which shows you how Muslims hate Christians. I was in the store of my friend in Newark Avenue in Jersey City. We have been with some Muslim friends, we were five friends together, maybe two or three Muslims and two Christians, I don’t remember exactly and the newspaper that came out that day was Al-Ahram International and the front page in Al-Ahram was about the killing of twelve Christians in Sanabu and they mentioned the story. Unfortunately I read the story and I got shocked. I told my friend, what is happening? Why did they kill these people? It was very strange to hear from my Muslim friend, we eat together, he started to dance. Very happy. I asked him why and he said "We started killing you" and he started to dance to with his stick. I cannot explain my feeling of that time because we have to respect death. This is death my friend. In our tradition you have to respect death, the killed people. "Why you try to... they have done nothing to you. Why do you dance M[name left out]?" That was his name. I don’t want to tell his last name and please take his name away. Please, I am asking you, take his name away.
CH: Okay.
RI: I asked why are you dancing? He said "because we are going to get rid of you," and he laughed in a hysterical way. I want to be straight with you. He gave me a lot of energy of anger. The first time in my life, here in the US, I hit him in the face. I have to admit this and I told him I am not going to let you do this again. I repeated this three times. I am not going to let you do this again against my people. I left. He knows what I am doing and I started my own campaign informing and creating awareness among the American public about our problem in Egypt until the time came and many Jewish and Christian organizations helped me with the council of churches to organize a big protest in front of the Egyptian council in 1997 I believe. This was the start if uncovering or creating awareness among the American people for our problem. Let me tell you something about this sad history. I started from 1953 and the only thing in my life that makes me frustrated is the persecution. I fled the persecution, I lived the persecution, the people around me remind me of the persecution, the history of my family, of myself, everything reminded me of persecution. What can I do? Then I looked at my son, just born, I looked to him. He was born in 1982, his name is Mark and I gave him another name, Mina. I looked for saint Mina and king Mina, Narmer, this is a very nice name. I gave him the name Mark Mina. I looked at him and said we are going to be rooted out. We are not going to be like the Irish or the Jewish if we stay like this. We will be finished. My son and my daughter will intermarry with other races and we are going to loose our connection to our roots and we have been given a very nice land in Egypt, a blessed land and thanks God Jesus blessed Egypt and we carry the name of Jesus for two thousand years waiting for salvation. So why do I cut off my son from my roots? He gave me power to continue. I didn’t care about the money spent. I spent my own money but I was very happy. Yes, I know, this is wrong sometimes, because I have family responsibility and always my wife blaming me why do you spent all this money on these things. I explained to her many times. As any Egyptian wife she tries to defend her point of view. We got to make some money for our son. I told her we are going to make more than money, I make better than money for my son and I give my son my roots back. I let him live in America like Irish American, Jewish American, like any community here in the US, like Puerto Rico, Korean, Chinese, you know. We have to create our own identity in the US. My mission is divided into two parts. One to save the innocent people in Egypt and two to build our own identity to keep my son and my offspring belong to my roots there. This is nothing against American law here. This is good for America and its interests and it is good for our interests as the Christian Copts. Why would we loose our identity? We have a very golden chance now. One of the most important books I read here, I couldn’t finish it until now, it is Nixon’s book called ’Seizing the moment’. This book, president Nixon, he speculates about the future of the US and how after the fall of communism, this book encourages me to continue. I felt we have a golden chance in the global level for changes to save our civilization and to save our name. We are almost going to be extinct, to be finished. I’ll give you some statistics, based on my ideology, why I am doing this and why I like this. Why I decided to go that way and not that way. I lived in Upper Egypt. I was born in a very conservative area, like a ghetto I told you. A Christian ghetto. In 1959 or 56 the Arab Muslims around us were big but not big like now. Then I read information that the increase of the rate of Muslims is 2.3% for each 1000 persons and the rate among Christians less then 1%. I thought about it. There is a small calculation, like to 2,4,16,32 and 2,4,6,8. So after 50 years from now we will have for each Christian 32 Arab Muslims there and we will be finished within 50 years. These are facts. These are numbers. You cannot escape. Numbers is different. We are in deep trouble. The problem is not they are killing people. The problem is we want to guarantee something in the future. I want my son to be connected to his land. To be connected to his family. This is one of the facts which moved me here. Another fact is that the hatred is increasing every day among the Muslims against the Christians. They are taught in the schools to hate the Coptic people, not to talk to the Coptic people in your school. Don’t play with him. Don’t talk to him and little by little the Muslim neighbor will kill his Christian neighbor.
CH: Who gave you this information?
RI: This information I have it from my sister’s son in the school in Assiut. One day she told me they teach the kids in the school not to play with the Christians. She was a girl. Why? Because she doesn’t wear the hegab or veil. So the Muslims don’t want our kids to be with theirs. So hatred is being built up here. Maybe the hatred explodes tomorrow or the day after tomorrow. So we have to do something very fast to serve the people. Then I decided to contact the other people and see if they could help. Then I met with the Jewish community. I received some help, political help. Not financial help. I did not receive a penny from anyone. I never ever received a penny from anyone, Muslim, Christian or Jews. But this does not mean I don’t want it. We want money to help our people. We want money to save their lives. You explained me how the poverty is effecting the Christian life. We want to do something for those people. We want to build our own people here in the US. We are scattered and divided and our own church is under the persecution and influence of the Egyptian government. The priests who come here are picked carefully to come to the US. They don’t allow any priest to come here. They pick some qualified priest from their point of view and I can’t blame them. They defend their interests and so we have to defend our interests too.
CH: What I don’t understand, why did you start your own organization and not join one of the others?
RI: When I came to the US the first address I looked for were the Coptic people who tried to defend the Coptic entity in Egypt. Then I went to those people two or three times. Every time I went there they created problems for me. They tried to fight me and eventually they alienate me from the group.
CH: Why?
RI: By the time, I said maybe this is because they don’t know me. Maybe they think I was coming from this or that side. I tried to disconnect myself until the first meeting with the American Coptic Association. The meeting was held in 46th street and Broadway. I found them in a meeting with the south Sudanese and the Lebanese and a Christian group and another Jewish group. They discussed a very strange title and that was how to move the Copts from Upper Egypt to Sinai. Yeah.
CH: They did this?
RI: Yeah. It was very strange for me. I am from Upper Egypt. I couldn’t believe my ears here. So I asked the people.
CH: When was this?
RI: In 1994 but what month exactly I cannot tell you. Then something wrong happened in the meeting. I opposed them. I said we are not animals. You have to take our opinion. Why you take me from my land and put me in the desert while Moses himself couldn’t live them [there]. Moses himself, while God gave him food. You remember the story. Why do you root out the people from their own homes and civilizations, the cradle of history, and you take them to the desert. Who is going to live there? What do you want.
CH: This is because they wanted to have a Coptic state in Sinai?
RI: No, the story of the Coptic state it is another meeting from same organization. In another meeting we discussed the human rights of the Christians there, about the people killed in Dairut at that time. In that meeting a Christian submitted a paper about the Coptic Republic of Egypt. I asked him why did you write this paper? This is written in good English. This is not his style. Who gave you that paper? Why are you doing this. He is the same guy he published in his newspaper calling for a war. He wants a Coptic state as if we want to divide our country and our people. We don’t want this. We want people to live in peace together. We cannot start if we don’t know where it ends. We cannot call for a war because we stayed 2000 years in peace and now we have a chance to get real peace. So why make it war? So lets give peace a change. Everytime I tried to raise my voice I found people trying to distort my opinion. To say, like Seif Al-Ashmawy, who passed away two years now. He accused me to cause a rift between Muslims and Christians. I told him, I am not a killer, I am not killing Muslims. So why you are accusing me. But they know some of the facts. Now I am satisfied with the work I have done to help the people. We are not looking for trouble. Not looking for war or blood. We ask for a peaceful solution.
CH: Would you be willing to speak about it with the Egyptian government?
RI: If we have better circumstances and better mutual understanding and they have to prove their good will. You are familiar with the Coptic problem, now we have five years in a campaign of activism, defending the Christians and no one addressed our issue. Neither President Mubarak, nor the prime minister, nor anyone. Like nothing happened, they never responded. We never asked for anything hard for them. We want people to live in peace. This is very precious for all us. We are ready to work for this if they give us a change to work for this. But they want to exclude some people and invite other people. They miss out everything. We cannot work that way.
Q. What about Muslims in the US?
There is a big group in America. They try to exaggerate our message to the Egyptian government and try to create a problem for the government or try to create a problem between the government and the Copts here. Unfortunately Egyptian newspapers try to feed this action or direction. ’Oh the people in the United States try to do so and so. Trying to destroy this or that’ and that is not correct. They try to destroy our picture. They say we are trying to cause rift between Christian and Muslim. When Coptic Christians call for their rights this is rift? It is not! Give the people their own rights. No sensitive issues here. They make it sensitive.
No, this is an internal problem. They try to complicate the problem. They try to benefit out of this. Because those people are fed by people of influence and they put oil on the fire. More oil. Don’t listen to those people. Those people are extremists. Those people try to dismantle the picture of Egypt outside. We don’t want this.
end of recorded interview.
