At one moment a group of young men armed with sticks and some with protective vests went in a group to another part of Tahrīr, proBābly to settle a particular issue. That group made it clear there were fighters among these young men. This also became clear when we sat in teahouse on Wādī al-Nīl and suddenly faced a fight close to the entrance of the teahouse. We heard shots being fired. This did not take long, perhaps 10 minutes. When we left, the teahouse passersby told us it was over. It seems that such petty quarrels happen more often now. Nothing major had happened, but it was brewing. We went to the Muhammad Mahmūd Street where only recently there had been street fights between demonstrators and security. According to Rā’id, demonstrators tried to go through this street to the Ministry of Interior (perhaps 500 meters away). Security personnel, police forces, and riots squads tried to stop them. This was where most of the people that had been killed in fire had died. After these clashes, the road was fully blocked with several road blocks that no one could go through. Several roads around the Ministry of Interior have been sealed off so that demonstrators cannot reach them.
I agreed with Rā’id that I would ask him some questions for AWR . The following text is from a question and answer session with Rā’id al-Sharqāwī:
Q: Who are the people we see today on Tahrīr square?
A: As you have seen yourself, it turned into a park for those fellow mates, colleagues, and lovers, but a big part is still open to the street people—meaning those who may have no place to go so they wait for a chance to have a tent to sleep in or a chance to make love. There were even veiled ladies who freely mixed among young men. If they are real Muslims who follow Shari'a, they should be either at home or not in a place where doubts arise.
Some of these people are from the April 6th Movement, which is divided into two wings: the Ahmad Māhir group and the Democratic Coalition Front, who were part of the real 25th January Revolution. The media and the fame went to others who came to be considered leaders and took part in the meetings with the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces like Isrā’ ‘Abd Al-Fatāh, Wā’il Ghunaym, Shādī al-Ghazālī Harb, and Asmā’ Mahfūz. They consistently try to expose the wrongdoings of the military council for personal fame. The April 6th movement has failed because of a move by the Islamists to smear their image. So, they are now at a loss and trying to restore their most effective tool that they have found in Tahrīr, so others may use them or join them in order to extend their existence on the streets.
Q: These clashes took place before the elections. What was the relation between these clashes and the elections?
A: There is evidence that both former NDP officials and Hamas had an interest to postpone the elections. They did so through the creation of chaos as we have seen prior to the elections. Information has come out from a cell phone and a laptop of Ahmad ‘Izz, the ex-National Democratic Party leader of the political committee, another cell phone of Ahmad Fathī Surūr, former chairman of the Peoples' Assembly. This confirmed that they had long talks with former NDP members of Parliament. The former NDP stalwarts believe chaos will suit them because they want people to long back to the days they were in power under Mubārak . Hamas is eager to have influence in Egypt because they are not able to put pressure on Israel from Gaza.
There is evidence that Hamas sympathizers have been among the fighters who had mixed among the demonstrators. I find that a worrying sign. Demonstrators tried to go to the Ministry of Interior to attempt to humiliate the police, and to defame and to shame the Egyptian security forces who they believe will not succeed in arresting people from their groups. They were trying to prove the weakness of the Ministry of Interior as they have done in the first weeks of the revolution but they failed to do so in this instance. Hamas is also active in Al-’Arīsh, Sinai. Here the police recently arrested three Egyptians who were linked to a Hamas leader who was responsible for sabotaging the gas supply pumps to Israel.
Egyptian secret service police members arrested a Danish student and three American students, assisted by some people in the square who had seen them preparing Molotov bottles and throwing them from the roof of the AUC over the two sides the demonstrators and the police. They were expelled from Egypt after interference of US Ambassador Ann Patterson. The Danish student used a special cartridge called a Cartouche and fired this on both the police and the demonstrators. He was kept in an office of intelligence of the military forces with 3 people identified as linked to Hamas involved in the fights. One of them was an Egyptian who lived for many years in the US, fluent American English speaking and linked to Ismā’īl Hanīyah of the Hamas. They were arrested when it was discovered that they gave food and money to bandits (in Egypt known as Baltaggi) to motivate the youngsters to go and throw stones and Molotov bottles at the Ministry of Interior. Some bandits informed the police out of suspicion that the offer to pay them for this job had bad intentions. There was also a young lady from Denmark was arrested for giving money to street gangs, motivating them to obey those urging them to attack the Ministry of Interior. In her bag they found 20, 50, and 100 banknotes in dollars.
These efforts to pay baltaga (gangs) was confirmed by Safwat ‘Abd al-Ghanī, the Islamic group's most famous leader, who is against the military council and one of the team of assassins who killed president Sadat. On the famous Dream TV channel with Wā’il al-Ibrāshī, he said that he saw some older men motivate the youngsters to attack the Ministry of Interior after which they stepped back, leaving the youngsters in the front. So, I can show you that 95% of the deaths and injuries are from the street gangs.
Q: How did Egyptian security respond to this? Were they not greatly weakened after they withdrew from the streets on January 28th which was followed by severe attacks of demonstrators on police stations, police cars and individual policemen? Thousands of prisoners were freed, among them criminals with terrible records of violence. The Egyptian security then disappeared from the streets of Egypt and are only seen again in these demonstrations.
A: The withdrawal of the police on January 28th was done on purpose to avoid more severe attacks on the police and security members and to let protestors forget other security places in Egypt (CH: Rā’id did not say so in March 2011. He then stated that there was no need for the police to withdraw on January 28). They indeed attacked police stations and stole weapons with serial numbers, which are difficult to buy or sell as the law sentences anyone carrying a weapon stolen from the police to 15 years in prison if carried and if fired, they would receive 25 years with hard labor or execution.
The police was indeed believed to have been weakened but now the police have shown that they are not that weak as they were able to stop the protestors from entering the Ministry of Interior.
The events developed like this: There was a demonstration in Tahrīr. Fighters had mixed among the peaceful youth who only came to voice their opinions. Then came a call to the fighters among the demonstrators to attack the Ministry of Interior, as the police did not intend to fight those peaceful demonstrators in Tahrīr. At that moment, many of the non-violent youth left or went to the middle of the square, keeping a distance from a highly suspect group trying to move to the Ministry of Interior. This was met with appropriate measures for combating riots employed by many Western countries. They used tear gas which demonstrators say is different from that used in the past.
Some people involved argued that the remains of the old regime are paying certain people among the demonstrators to fight the Revolution. The paid and unpaid youngsters began shooting cartouches at the police, trying to show that the police are weak. The police were wise and did not fire any tear gas bombs at the center of Tahrīr, but only at those who tried to attack the Ministry. The consequence was that the non-violent demonstrators began to question the motivation of the attackers. The fighters were in a street leading from the square to the Ministry, getting hit by many tear gas bombs—used legally, cartouches, and rubber bullets. Suddenly the fire was also coming from real rifles and pistols. I was on the spot and could determine this by the sound and the echo. So many fell dead. In the morgue the forces from the square tried to prove police involvement, but this failed as many were shot by different types of bullets, which could not be traced as linked to the police. Some were shot by police cartridges, though not fatally. Still, many died of bleeding or inadequate medical care as the field hospitals at Tahrīr were not well equipped or staffed. Bullets were discovered in the bodies of the dead that were made by foreign manufacturers or of AK 47s that are not used by any police personnel in Tahrīr, which could be from snipers.
Q: Thus different parties appeared to have had an interest to create chaos prior to the elections. But I would like you to expand on the role of Hamas in this. People with links to Hamas were among the fighters but is there no stronger evidence?
A: Three Hamas members tried to avoid their arrest and attempted to flee to Palestine. They were carrying rifles with snipers' accessories. Why? I believe they cannot create pressure on Israel through Gaza and thus intended to create what is a so-called a “back-up zone,” which they call the strategic depth. They want a back door to Israel and they want to use Egypt to create pressure on Israel. Reaching the Ministry of Interior would have presented the Ministry as weak.
Q: Would these non-Egyptians or Egyptians with foreign contacts have acted on their own or were they part of a mission? If part of a mission, what makes you believe that?
A: If they would have been part of a mission they would have logistically helped, use speeches or leaflets to urge people to act but this we don’t see. Being in action means they are hired but these people were not that well trained. I believe there are two types of activists that may have been involved. Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, each with its special targets, are involved. This is evidenced by the speeches of their politicians. If you listen to Shaykh Hamad bin Jassim bin Jabr bin Muhammad Al Thani, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, or Bandar bin Sultan bin Abdul-’Azīz Al Saud, you will understand that they have an agenda. The wisest are the Muslim Brotherhood group who are peaceful with everyone, military forces, Copts, liberals, and Salafīs alike.
Their purpose was to embarrass the Egyptian army, now the only considerable force in Egypt and the only obstacle to U.S. influence in Egypt. The army has become an obstacle to democratization, which the U.S. supports.
The “productive mess” was mentioned and authorized publicly by former U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, as the U.S. is keen on having powers that are new and not tainted by the dream of the Arabs and the Islamic phase of the Middle East.
Q: Thus the U.S. has no longer an interest to support the Egyptian army?
A: The Americans needed a strong Egyptian army to contain Libya, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, and the Gulf, but with the turmoil and after the Arabian Spring in the region many countries have weakened and such a strong army is no longer needed.
Q: In other words, the period leading up to the elections was full of manipulations of different parties to gain as much power as possible. The outcome of the elections is that the Freedom and Justice Party (of the Muslim Brothers) came in first, the Salafī al-Nūr “light” Party came in second, and al-Kutlah al-Misrīyah Party or “the Egyptian Bloc” of Christian businessman Najīb Sawirus came in third. Now that this outcome is known will struggles cease?
A: It was agreed that the election of a new president will be followed by a new parliamentary election. The parliament will last maybe half a year and will prove a failure as they will never agree on one agenda.
Q: Did Bishop Bula call Christians to vote for the Kutlah? What was the effect of this in the elections?
A: Bishop Bula called Christians to vote for the al-Kutlah. Even the Christians like the Christian nominee in Shubrā area who got papers spread in St. Mark Church with the names to be elected mentioned in a press release in al-Yawm al-Sābi’ paper and the Copts United website that Bishop Bula and the Church urges the Copts to vote and certain names including Muslims should be helped along by the votes of the Copts. Then Sawirus announced that whether a member of the parliament or not, he will be keen on being an obstacle in the way of the Muslim Brotherhood, with many TV ads for the Liberal Egyptian Bloc Party. This was the golden chance for the Islamists to call for a ballot meant to face the Church in favor of removing Islam from Egypt by spreading secularism.
Q. Was Najīb Sawirus publicly not very negative about the Muslim Brothers? Hasn’t there been a fight of words and even slander between the two parties? Can you explain the fights between the two and what this meant for the electorate?
A: It was not a fight, as Sawirus knows that economically they can destroy him, but he can at least use words. I believe it is a plan to help the Muslim Brotherhood indirectly as he was acquitted by the military council of three fatal accusations that are proven and registered. During the privatization period, he bought three factories at less than the real value of the market, for which Ahmad ‘Izz was also accused. He is out and one good act deserves another for the Military. I think he is wiser than digging up this mistake so he can declare war on the Muslim Brotherhood. Why them but not the Salafīs who are more dangerous to the Christians than the Muslim Brotherhood who has an old hand in politics and in social services?
Q. There are still questions as to what happened on October 9th at Maspero during the clashes between demonstrators and security.
1) The Maspero group turned out to be a tool of the two priests, Mattias Nasr and Philopater Jamīl to pressure the Church on special issues concerning their defrocking and prevention by the Coptic Orthodox Pope Shenouda III to serve in the church. Later on it became their tool to put pressure on the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF). Demonstrations continued for several days and were a nuisance for the public; the busy Kurnīsh was frequently blocked. On October 9 they turned into bloodshed resulting in 27 deaths. The Military council holds them along with Najīb Jubrā’īl responsible for the demonstrations that showed a lack of discipline.
2) The two priests called the people for three marches in 15 days beginning from Dawarān Shubrā to Maspero despite an alert given out by the army that groups with other agendas may mix among them.
Yet, the priests insisted to embarrass the Military Council, which was clear by the speech given by father Mattias Nasr when the march blocked Ramsīs street in the direction of Bāb al-Hadīd and Fajālah zone, full of trade activities, to warn the Military that this march will be the last one; the last warning and the last chance for the Military to give due care to the demands set by the Copts represented in the Maspero youth movement. The silence of the Church and the Pope, created other voices separate from the Church’s control with different agendas, helped along by the Copts abroad. They market themselves through the internet and donations as president of a Coptic organization or that sort of thing, to direct part of these marches.
I was present and found many youth carrying knives or pen-knives, and even a girl with a modern 14-bullet barrel pistol, others carried one-bullet pistols made locally with a cartouche bullet named Fard Cartouche Mahally. The one bullet is divided into 100, or 150, or 200 small metal fragments, normally sprayed, but sometimes could be concentrated on a sensitive part of the body causing death, or perhaps the eye. (I hereby suggest that no one can target a specific thing unless it is very close, so when a policeman shoots, he shoots above their heads so the fragments rain down not killing, but rather causing little injuries in order to deter them.)
The march began peacefully along Shubrā main street and reached the entrance of the Shubrā tunnel with different mottos that were very Coptic, like, “ya moshīr ya gharīb inta mish ad al-Salīb, ya moshīr Ūl al-haq inta ma’āhūm walā la’, ya moshīr ya khasīs dam al-Qibtī mish rikhīs.” or “ Field Marshal, you are an outsider and you can not win over the Cross. Field Marshal say he truth are you with them or what! Field Marshal..you are descpicable, Coptic blood is not cheap” So the call to the mobs was to stop this Christian protest that would damage the unity of the people. On the state TV station the Minister of Information, and Rashā Majdī, the TV announcer, announced that those mobs came from the outskirts of al-Qulaylī, Al-Sabtīyah, and Jizirit Badrān, known to have violent poor people and began to attack with Molotov bottles, a bottle filled with petrol with a flame they light and throw. Some motorcycles riders from the Christians hurried to the top of the tunnel and stopped them with a clashes where sticks and stones were extensively used and the big number of Copts with the persistence to win the fight made them triumph in a matter of 15 minutes then the march went straight to the entrance of ‘Urābī street to the direction ofDār al-Qadā’ and the Supreme Court building, then to the Jalā’ Street, then to Maspero.
In Maspero, when the group of people began to arrive at the front of the State TV building, Nabīl Shara al-Dīn, was speaking. The groups were coming from the direction of Ramsīs Hilton Hotel was about to reach the place where a group of 500 people were listening to Sharaf al-Dīn and chanting harsh calls at the military council by someone whose brother was killed during the Revolution. Among these demonstrators were many groups, each led by different chant leaders. Prior to this, I was standing alone with Hānī ‘Azīz al-Jizayrī, a Coptic writer and activist. Beside me were policemen, who I found rendered ineffective by the army forces. They were gathering information on the ongoing incidents without taking any action. I find the police better fit for such a mission than the army. Then a group of military police waded through the demonstrators. I told Hānī ‘Azīz and Rāmī Kamīl to be careful to secure themselves and to go to the back lines. They said it was peaceful, so I hurried to hide near the kiosk and the police for protection and heard numerous gunshots of live bullets, and I knew the army never uses these bullets. I daringly ran across the street to the bank of the Nile and hid behind a big tree. I witnessed well-trained people burning cars that were parked along the Nile, and then shooting cartouches from the direction of Ramsīs Hilton toward the people in front of the TV building. Molotov bottles were thrown from the direction of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs by those claimed to be the traders of Wikālit al-Balah who feared that their businesses would be disrupted when the Copts went on a strike as had happened before. So began the army’s true involvement and the panic happened that happens during intense clashes. Two army trucks ran over the demonstrators who were not in control of their reaction because the scene was chaotic from the panic caused by the gunshots in every direction. There was no safe corner to hide—all which contributed to the many casualties. Among those were people who were not able to go to the side street where there is a parking lot and kept to the main street, Kurnīsh al-Nīl. Some of the people who went down to the ferry of the Nile were able to photograph three snipers from over the bridge shooting at the people. The military police arrested one who later was discovered as related to the militia of Ahmad ‘Izz and former members of Parliament from the NDP. Some 13 other baltagi (paid rioters) were arrested for being hired to drive people away so as not to stop their work of creating chaos. They are supported by many Islamists and one of them is a nominee for the parliament in Shubrā whose supporters attacked a later march of the Maspero Youth Movement to commemorate the 40th anniversary of the deaths in the massacre. His name is Jamal Sābir, Salafī candidate for the parliamentary election.
Q: There are stories that there were snipers on the 6th of October Bridge aiming at the demonstrators and army? Could you explain this story of snipers? Who were these?
A: There were already previous foreign snipers in Egypt. A Russian sniper was here on 29th of January. He targeted people in the forefront of the demonstrations. This Russian sniper fled from his hotel and left his group and luckily for him was not discovered at the airport, but later the CIA informed Egypt about him, then he fled to Israel at the Taba border gateway.
Concerning October 9th, there are published photos of the army showing a cartridge with the stamp of Blackwater. The Egyptian army does not use this. There are photographs of a light post on the Kurnīsh that had been shot with a high-caliber rifle that is not available to the Egyptian army. This is called a sniper's bullet known locally as Grover bullets with anti-steel bodies.
Q. Christians are often stating that there are no high ranking Christian officers in the army and police and that therefore army and police do not really know and understand the Christian sentiments. You told me this is not true but can you then provide me with names of high ranking Christians in the army and police? What is their role in sectarian conflicts when they happen?
Chief General Sāmī Sīdhum, Ministry of Interior Affairs
Sāmih Sādiq Antūn, Chief Advisor to the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF)
My family, uncles, and cousins
Chief General Māhir Sāmī Mikhail
Chief Colonel Nabi Nāshid Mikhail
Chief General Pilot Engineer Zāhir Zakī Gurgī
Major teacher in the military of the technical army college, Hāzim Zakarīyah Fahīm
Ex-colonel pilot fighter Māhir Mikhail Ghālī
It is not logic to speak about a ratio of Christians in the army or police but selecting officers without any consideration of their religion is the issue.
