You have been following Egyptian affairs since 1976; did you ever expect the revolt of the peaceful people of Egypt against their ruling regime?
I did not expect a revolution that the Egyptian people themselves have never expected. On the 25th of January, I was in a restaurant in the al-Ibrāhimīyah area of Alexandria. When the protests started, I asked the shop owner about them and he simply replied by describing the protesters as "just some poor people".
I somewhat perceived and noticed the escalation of the anger among Egyptians and their frustration at Mubārak's regime. However, being aware of it doesn’t necessarily mean being aware of the time of its eruption. I can remember that when I went to Naja' Hammādī to meet some Christian families during December 2010 (one year after the Church massacre there), I was expecting their complaints to mainly focus on sectarian injustice.
Actually, they were rather angry and discontented with their economic conditions, lack of jobs, deteriorating income, price hikes, etc. Upon the trip, I was surprised by the sudden call of the State Security Investigations Service to ask me about my visit and what I had heard from people. When I reported that people were angry and frustrated because of poverty and unemployment, one of the officers replied in a mocking way just blaming them for not doing enough effort.
But it was obvious for everyone that Mubārak’s regime was faltering?
That is correct. Accordingly, I was expecting some trouble upon Mubārak's death but never expected a revolution in his lifetime, especially one that is as major as the January 25th revolution.
You have been interested in covering sectarian issues and you have written about the reasons and circumstances for all the sectarian clashes that occurred over the past years. In this regard, I would like to ask you: Are Christians persecuted in Egypt?
No, there is no persecution but there is discrimination; Christians are sometimes discriminated against in different circumstances and several situations.
What are the most common direct and indirect reasons that trigger violence between Muslims and Christians?
Concerning the direct reasons, there are only two: The first reason is the conversion of an adherent of one of the two religions to the other one (in this context, Christian-Muslim romantic relationships are usually involved); the second reason is church building. As for the indirect reasons, there is the absence of government action, before and after the revolution, which results in the exacerbation of crises until they explode.
Moreover, there are Christians who are trying to change the status quo. For instance, the incident of Abū Fānā that took place in al-Minya in 2008 had come out of a dispute over an unregistered plot of land that each party was claiming ownership to. If the government had settled the issue, organized land registration and ownership, such a conflict would have never taken place; the same rationale applies to various incidents.
A good illustration of the violence resulting from Christians' attempts to change the status quo is the incident of al-Mārīnāb in Aswan. Christians there had been praying for years in a place about the size of a room. It was a guesthouse and not an official church, so the problem started when they tried to transform the room into a church without consulting anyone.
It may be worth mentioning that a member of the Dutch parliament has written an important report about the persecution of Christians in Egypt. In his report, he focused particularly on the incidents of Maspero and Mārīnāb in Aswan. I have refuted in a paper his subjective views as he claims that Muslims are always at fault while this is not the case. For example, one of the unwise decisions by Christians was the one concerning the St. Bīshūy Monastery when Christians extended the fence surrounding the monastery over a land owned by the military [CH: It was government owned land, I did not state it was owned by the military]. They had no right to do so, especially that they had done it despite their awareness of the army refusal.
Do you mean that it is rather the responsibility of both Christians and Muslims and that it is not Muslims’ fault at all times?
Yes, it is obvious that there is some discrimination against Christians but there is no persecution nevertheless. By and large, Mubārak's regime was based on the persecution of poor people, either Muslims or Christians, by by rich people.
Based on my experience, some complaints by Christians regarding what they consider as acts of persecution are rather an evidence of persecution against poor people in general. One day, a poor Christian employee came to me complaining about the ignorance by the presidential office of his request to send his daughter abroad for treatment. I asked him to reflect how such a request would be dealt with if it came from a poor Muslim employee and how it will be treated if it came from a member of the family of Butrus Ghālī, the finance minister then.
In other terms, the persecution of the poor and marginalized by the rich and powerful prevailed during Mubārak’s regime, particularly during the past few years, but the phenomenon was not related to religion. However, I still believe that Christian people were suffering more because they have been both poor and Christian.
Considering that you are a Western researcher and journalist, to what extent the rise of Islamists worries the Western world?
The West is very fearful and anxious; Israel takes some part in accentuating those fears whilst Islamists do not play any considerable role to limit them. In June, I have met some leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood and asked them to issue a statement to deny sectarian violence and to reassure Christians. They refused to do so claiming it is none of their business [CH: I said they did not respond to my request. I did not state that they claimed that it was none of their business]. That reminded me of a response in the mid-nineties by a scholar of the Azhar, Shaykh 'Abd al-Mu'tī Bayyūmī, upon the attack on Europa Hotel on al-Haram street. I would like to add that my conversation with the Muslim Brotherhood was within a public forum in al-Sharqia and I noticed the name of Rafīq Habīb, the deputy leader of the Freedom and Justice Party, written in large font yet he was apparently not attending, so I assumed they are just using his name for reasons of promotion.
What is the secret behind your particular focus on the sectarian issues in Egypt?
There is no secret. Firstly, I am concerned with the social problems resulting from poverty. I am surprised by the social gap among Egyptian people and unable to imagine how someone can rule a country undergoing such a gap. Similar to what I wish for the rest of Egyptians, I would like to see Christians well integrated into society.
Through your long experience in Egypt, what are the best and worst traits of the Egyptian people in your opinion?
Their best qualities are their friendliness and notable peacefulness. They are not conservative in nature and usually express themselves spontaneously to others. As for the worst characteristics, exaggeration is the main one. They tend to exaggerate especially regarding numerical data; a lot of Western journalists have fallen for such exaggerations and that is why I have personally learned to be very careful regarding any stated figures.
العربية