It is therefore important to hear the opinions of Yūsuf Sīdhum, Editor-in-Chief of the weekly Watanī since 1986—not officially a Christian publication, but a de facto Christian publication because of the columns written by many prominent Christian personalities and its focus on Christian issues including tensions and Muslim-Christian relations. Watanī is widely read in Christian circles both in Egypt as among Coptic migrants outside Egypt. Sīdhum is also a member of the Free Egyptians Party.
Yūsuf Sīdhum shares the concerns of many Christians about the electoral results, but also sees opportunities that were not there during the dictatorship of Husnī Mubārak.
“We have only seen the results of the first round, but two more rounds are following and much can happen in those rounds. What is significant is that 62 percent of the electorate voted! This is a higher percentage of participation than we have ever had before. These results are therefore markedly different from the paltry 17 to 23 percent in previous elections. It is also noteworthy that the elections were carried out under the observation of resident Egyptian judges, making the elections more honest and more representative of the people. This does not mean that no irregularities occurred, but that these results are more reliable than any previous result. The new parliament will therefore be more representative than any parliament since the military coup d’etat in 1952.”
Sīdhum confirms that “there is a great degree of disappointment for Christians and liberals about the outcome of this first phase of the elections because of the landslide victories of the Freedom and Justice Party and the newly emerging Salafists.”
“You now hear from educated Christians and liberal Muslims that it is over. I disagree. It shows how crucial it is to go to the polls. The great victory in Cairo for Islamists shows how much we focused our attention on certain districts as Zamālik, Ma'ādī, and Heliopolis, but many parts of Cairo were not liberal at all.”
Conversations with FJP and the “Worst-case scenario”
Yūsuf Sīdhum understands the despair among many, but questions what would happen in the worst-case scenario. This is in his eyes “a clear majority for political Islam who then would form a government. They would press for Parliament to nominate a commission to write the constitution. That commission would be heavily Islamist since members would have been nominated by Parliament. In order to achieve this, they would have to press the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces to abandon the document that specified the criteria for forming a constitutional committee that would guarantee that it would be reflective of all peoples of the nation. Since the SCAF supports this document, the SCAF thus creates an obstacle to the plans of the Islamists to dominate the constitutional committee through the Parliament. The worst-case scenario would be that the Islamists are able to press the military to forget about this document. They thus would be able to hijack the constitution. I believe that if this were to happen, Christians and Liberal Muslims would return to the street. I believe they together make up around 40 percent of the population. They will not allow Egypt to become a second Iran.
I do not think it will be that grim. In order for Islamists to achieve this, they will have to overcome many obstacles. First they need to win the two other rounds of the elections. They then need to form a cabinet, and doing so requires forming a coalition and thus they have to compromise. The army also stands in their way and then, of course, they will have to overcome the resistance of millions of people.”
Sīdhum is impressed by meetings he and other Christians had three months ago with leaders of the Freedom and Justice Party.
“We told them frankly of our fears. They showed a clear understanding of these concerns and said that they would like to see 10 percent of the Parliament Christian. Egypt, and I agree to that, has rejected the quota principle as in Lebanon. We want Copts to be elected by all Egyptians, not only by Christians. They asked us, ‘Why don’t you suggest 30 to 40 Christians of who you believe are strong enough to win. We will support that by withdrawing our candidates from these districts.’ This reflects good intention and empathy for Christians. Their suggestion was never carried out because the al-Kutlah al-Misrīyah (Egyptian Bloc) did not agree to this. They wanted to field liberal Muslims in most districts, believing that this would enhance their chances.”
“Another good sign of intentions was that we both signed the Azhar document on civil society. We totally agree with that text that called for a civil state. Now the Azhar has retreated from their own document. They no longer speak of a civil state but call for a democratic state.”
But this has not made the FJP refrain from signing the document.
“I have been impressed by this high level meeting with Muhammad Sa'd al-Katatnī, Secretary General of the Freedom and Justice Party and Muhammad Mursī, President of the FJP. These statements have thus come from senior leaders. I have more trust in them than in Salafis. The FJP wants to show Egypt that they can create a democracy and project minorities. The meetings were good but we need to keep this dialogue going without compromising our objectives.”
“A major difference between us and them is that they oppose the constitutional document that I earlier referred to. This document defends and guarantees the rights of all people in Egypt and speaks about respect for diversity. This cannot be rejected. The Muslim Brothers say that nobody can hijack the will of the Egyptian people, referring to a simple majority but I believe this is rhetoric.
“The people I have met, Sa'd al-Katatnī, Muhammad Mursī, former ambassador Muhammad Rifā'ī Tahtāwī and others are decent people. I believe they want to give Egypt a good sense of democracy. Our group consisted of Dr. Sharīf Dūs, medical doctor in Ma'ādī, Samīr Marqus, now Deputy Governor of Cairo, lawyer Ihāb Ramzī and businessman, Rā'ūf 'Abd al-Masīh. This initiative to meet came from Rā'ūf who knew Nabīl Kāmil, a Muslim Brotherhood member. It was good that no clergy was involved, not from the church and no Muslim scholars. I believe such meetings are better carried out by non-clergy.”
“I have given you the worst-case scenario and showed you our meetings with Muslim Brothers. We will not sit with them to write a common agenda. Our differences are too big for that. But we need to talk.”
“I believe we need to form a coalition. I am glad that the Freedom and Justice Party spoke about the need for this. al-Katatnī said they wanted to form a national unity government. I would rather form with them one government and know what they are doing in the kitchen then have a strong voice in the opposition in Parliament. It is our national duty not to leave the state to Islamists alone. If we are in the opposition we will be defeated in any discussion about legislation. We need to cooperate if we want to keep vicious form of Islam at a distance.”
Najīb Sawirus, Christians, and the al-Kutlah al-Misrīyah
Q: But Najīb Sawirus, founder of the al-Kutlah al-Misrīyah, has continually exchanged harsh words with Islamists.
Sīdhum: Sawirus is not rational in all that he says. He responds too much to irrational remarks from others. I am glad he said that he does not want the al-Kutlah to be a Christian party; he wants to return to the liberalism of the first half of the 20th century. Sawirus has asked Christians not to join the party without taking at last several Muslim friends with them. These are positive things, but every now and then he responds in the media and spoils the good image he had.
Sawirus is facing many false accusations. It was thus claimed that he had fled the country (as had many other businessmen), but had actually only gone to Upper Egypt. He commented: ‘Yes, I left Cairo for an event celebrating a donation to Magdy Yacoub’s heart center. We don’t need to flee Egypt.’ His brother Samih was accused of corruption. The stories that he fled the country are not true. He paid his fine and then said that he would dispute these allegations. All stories about members of the Sawirus family feeing are nothing but efforts to destroy their credibility.
Q: But Christians have fears.
Sīdhum: Christians have to realize that they are not an isolated minority. I believe the constitutional document that sets the principles for the formation of a constitutional committee is important. That document called for all Christian denominations to be represented and, of course, the Azhar as well. We do not believe in quotas and thus syndicates, for example, will nominate a representative who will represent both the Muslim and Christian members of the syndicates.
Q: Could the Turkish model be an example for Egypt? Should Christians ask for a strong role of the army in the future government?
Sīdhum: When Erdogan visited Egypt he was seen as the savior of political Islam. That image was tattered when he gave his first speech, because he called for a civil state—separation of religion and state and equality among all people. He was then cursed by the same Islamists who had previously hailed him.
The Azhar document about civil state reflected the Turkish model. That document is now more acceptable to liberals than to Islamists.
Egypt is not ripe for a complete Western type of democracy. We need the army in supreme positions to act as a safety valve that will help us bring toward greater democratic achievements. I believe the army can only withdraw two to three election cycles after these first elections.
The army made a mistake by adding two articles in the constitutional criteria document: Any military budget and decisions will not be questioned by the Egyptian people. This formulation let to a resistance in all political parties in Egypt.
Of course there are matters related to the military that are related to national security. I agree that not all information can be revealed to Parliament. It instead should be revealed to a small committee consisting of officers and some members of Parliament before revealing issues to the Egyptian people. Whatever decision would be reached in this committee should be respected.
Q: Copts in The Netherlands are saying that there are no Christians in high-ranking army and police positions.
Sīdhum: There are no Christians in the Presidential administration, nor in the State National Security, nor the intelligence force. But in all other areas of the army and police one finds up to 3.5 percent Christians. Of course we need to revise the infrastructure. There are high-ranking Christian officers, but only a small percentage. An additional problem is that Christians are often promoted before retirement, though they have then never functioned in that rank.
Q: What will happen to the church when Pope Shenouda passes away? He is very charismatic and has deeply influenced the church, but is there is successor?
Sīdhum: If you would have asked me this question before January 25th I would have been skeptical. Much of Pope Shenouda’s rule was based on personal relations with President Mubārak. Christian advocating a secular state always criticized that Pope Shenouda represented the Christian community before the state. That position damaged the civil rights of Egyptian Christians. Pope Shenouda’s policy has made Christians withdraw in their own communities. Of course there are many historical reasons for this, but it is nevertheless not good that laymen accept to be represented by the church.
After the Revolution, Pope Shenouda got the message from Christians that he could not make all decisions on their behalf. Many Christians went to political parties. The political arena has been opened. Pope Shenouda is no longer the only representative for Christians.
Maspero Incident
Q: What happened in your view at Maspero on October 9th?
Sīdhum: I am convinced that there were no military orders to shoot at Christians. I have spoken with many witnesses and I have seen chaos and panicking soldiers. I believe the disaster we have seen was the result of sheer panic and that there were infiltrators—possibly remains of the old regime, who all have reasons to try to create chaos because that will make people long for the days of Mubārak.
I also believe reporters at Maspero should be detained. Their reporting was very inflammatory and inciting.
The National Council for Human Rights wrote a very encouraging report on the Maspero violence. There is also another report written by a group of 16 human rights organizations. These reports call for the SCAF to investigate and clear them of accusations through the arrest of responsible military officers and present them to a court marshal. We insist on this taking place.
The first time that Christian anger clashed with security was in Umraniya (over the church-building, November 2010). The second time was after the bombing in Alexandria (January 1, 2011). Anger was no longer contained in the church, it was public.
On October 9th the second march to Maspero was organized. Pope Shenouda called on the protestors to return home. He told them things will be corrected. His words were met with an angry response. ‘We did not come upon your orders and we do not want you to tell us what to do,’ protestors responded.
Christians no longer limited their frustrations to demonstrations in the Patriarchate. Copts are seeking citizenship rights. The only really civilized demonstration was in the morning on the 40th day after the Maspero killings. No slogans were shouted and there was only silence and Coptic hymns being sung. That was moving.
As Egyptians we often do not know how to demonstrate or how to make others be aware of our frustrations or grief. When we have a funeral for an important person we shout, scream, and push. That is not respectful. We should extend our hands lovingly instead of cursing.
Q: In one of the films of Maspero there was a monk who used extremely aggressive language against the governor of Aswan.
Sīdhum: They hurt the image of the church by what they say and do. But there are also other monks, in various monasteries, who do not agree to the politicization of the church.
Christian Figures in Egypt
Q: Lawyer Najīb Jubrā'īl presented a press release stating that some 100,000 Christians have left Egypt since the Revolution.
Sīdhum: Najīb Jubrā'īl is not telling the truth. Many foreign media outlets have called me about this. I wonder—how is it possible that people accept such a text that does not mention its sources? We at Watanī have tried to investigate this. We went to all major embassies and asked them for migration figures of 2010 and 2011 in order to make comparisons. The US has a quota system for countries (CH: through the so-called lottery system) and has allotted 50,000 spots per year to Egyptians. The Embassy told me this goal of 50,000 per year from Egypt has not yet been achieved. This is the most important immigration country. Say 50 percent of these 50,000 migrants would be Christian. That would make 25,000 Christians migrants. Canada and Australia fall far short of US numbers. The number of migrants that went to Holland, the UK, France, and Germany cannot be more than a few hundred people. Thus when we calculate this we cannot possibly reach the number that Najīb Jubrā'īl has given.
Q: Journalist Muhammad al-Bāz of al-Fajr claimed in an article that there are 20 million Copts of which 17 million are living in Egypt, which would be 20 percent of population. What do you think of his claim?
Sīdhum: I do not want to go into side discussions about numbers. We should focus on citizenship rights. I do not want to link building a church to the number of Christians as people often do. I want the freedom to build.
The media can make a huge commotion about the kidnapping of one girl. If that happens, it must be addressed and I do not need to claim that there are 60,000 such cases as the people who argue about numbers claim.
The problem is that there are no figures. The church says it has an internal registration system. They may have records but I don’t know of them. The state security never accepted that the church would make a church count. They know the figures through the computerized identity cards that mention one’s religion.
I personally believe the proportion of Christians to be around 10 percent. Muslim Brothers speak of 5 percent, but that is just rhetoric—they don’t reveal any sources. We are not Nigeria (around 50 percent Muslims and 50 percent Christians); we are not Lebanon (divided along religious lines). Our only hope is that Christians can be integrated in the Egyptian political arena.
Conclusion
The meeting with Sīdhum was one of hope but also realism that change does not come without a fight. The main differences, in Sīdhum’s eyes, are not the differences between Muslims and Christians, but between Islamists and non-Islamists; between those who want a strong role for the application of Islamic law and those who want a separation between religion and state. The first phase of the elections may have been disappointing for many Christians but for Sīdhum the struggle for the future of Egypt has just begun.
